Fuel Pump Woes

GTA broke down over the weekend. I had driven to Wareham (so about a 12 mile journey), it was stinking hot (rad & engine cooling fans had already decided to come on) and parked it up for a short spell. Came back to it, started her fine, drove 50 yards and the normal whine of the pump (presumably the rear) started to 'miss'. Shortly afterwards the engine died. After waiting a min or so, I started her up again with no issues, then it did the same again (whine of the pump started to miss) and engine died again.
Waited even longer (say 5 mins) and managed to make it down to a roundabout before I had a repeat performance.
Called the AA out. Waited the obligatory hour (which turned out to be 40 mins, so that was refreshing) and he agreed that I had a dodgy pump or perhaps connections to the pump. He agreed to follow me home and if need be he could tow me if the car conked out; strangely enough it didnt !!!

So would the rear or the front pump or both give this sort of issue?
The fact that the car starts immediately after it dies would lead me to think the front pump is not delivering. However, I believe it's the pump whine at the rear that is 'missing' (i.e. the drone of the pump stops and then starts and then stops altogether).

I believe both pumps are OEM so are probably well due to be replaced. But before I do that, is there a known issue - earthing or connection or pump relay issue that I should be looking at?

My crankcase sensor has been replaced a few years back - so I'm pretty certain it is a fuelling issue.
The car use to make a distinct and quite loud whine from the front pump, but over the years that nosie has almost disappeared.

I'm also wondering if this issue (pump not delivering fuel at the required rate) contributed towards my lack of boost a while back - i.e. weak actuator + reduced fuel pressure / rate = less boost.

[BIG_MVS]

Sounds similar to my front fuel pump woes back in the day.

Easeiest way to check is to turn on the ignition you should then hear the rear pump prime, start the engine and then both the front and rear pumps should be running all the time.

Paul. I don't know if you have a circuit diagram of your fuel pumps modus operandi, but if you have not, I attach one below.
In the GTA Turbo, both pumps front and rear are wired in parallel so what ever happens, they both start and stop together. 12v is supplied direct from the battery (No fuse) to the Fuel Pump relays contacts which is operated from the ECU. Now, if like the 610, priming thaks place when switching on the ign, then the ECU also controls this. You will have to confirm whether priming takes place as I don't know as I have not played with a Turbo. but from Martins comments, it looks as if it does prime, then the pumps stop, until the engine starts and the fuel pump relay is held in via the ECU whilst the crank sensor produces a signal.
With the intermittent problem that you describe, I would be looking for a poor connection, most probably on the pump itself. From what I remember, the wires are attached to the pump with an Eye termination which is held onto a threaded stud on the pump with a small nut. I would try to find which pump is giving you the trouble and go for the terminals ..... but being me, I would do both pumps anyway. Also, you will have seen posts about the front pump suppressor giving trouble. This is mounted near the pump and you can unplug it (it has two connectors on it) and effectively bypass it by taking the two connectors left hanging from the loom and pump, and plugging them together thus recreating the circuit without the suppressor. The relay could be troublesome, but try all the pump connectors first, also if you want to check the earth to the front pump, it is the one at the bottom front door pillars. Check both sides as the manual shows position of M10 being passenger side in LHD, so it could br on the drivers side on RHS .... who knows.
The earth for the rear pump, according to the diag' is somewhere by the Altenator.
If the pumps run intermittently, I would not suspect them at this stage.
You also suggest :- " I'm also wondering if this issue (pump not delivering fuel at the required rate) contributed towards my lack of boost a while back", of course if, due to a poor contact, the pump/s are not receiving a full !2v, that could also be a part of the problem.
Anyway, thats my tuppence worth ... Let us know how you get on.

Thanks Martin & John.

Yes I hear the pump(s) priming - the rear one louder than the front.
I'll check the connectors as per John's advice. Perhaps it's time to renew both anyway as they're over 23 yrs old now.

John, in the circuit diagram I'm guessing 283 is the rear pump, cant see the front being shown on there.

Found this http://www.ignitioncarparts.co.uk/PartD ... 3.0&s_vid= on an old post. It mentions it's for a GTA but pretty expensive as I believe you can get cheaper solid state pumps such as Posi flow?

I had this problem some time ago with the rear pump howling. The problem was actually the front pump would run for a few minutes and sieze causing a high current to be drawn from the one relay supplying both pumps, and because of voltage drop, low voltage getting to the rear pump made it howl.

Don't replace the front pump with a diaphragm style "dak dak" pump, as it ends up running flat out, as it feeds the "swirl pot" at the rear and overflows back to the main tank. These style pumps are made to feed a carb with a needle valve and will not last running fast with no pressure. Use a rotary type pump (Pierburg or Carter I think) made to feed carbs for the front pump.

Yes I hear the pump(s) priming - the rear one louder than the front.

Thanks for the info on priming on the Turbo's,

I'll check the connectors ............ Perhaps it's time to renew both anyway as they're over 23 yrs old now.

Checking connections is, of course, the first thing to do. My fear, which I have expressed before on here, is that if one just replaces the pump and all symptoms disappear, that could have been caused by just disturbing the connections in order to replace the pump, and in doing so correcting a poor connection and throwing away a perfectly good pump.

John, in the circuit diagram I'm guessing 283 is the rear pump, cant see the front being shown on there.

Sorry Paul, that was remis of me. I did get caught on this on when I first looked up this corcuit many years ago for someone on here ....... As you rightly say, item 283 is the rear pump, item 218 is the front pump ..... but where they got that pic of it from, is beyond me , and for clarity, item 236 is the fuel pump relay. Although they show the Injection Locking Relay, item 238 it has nothing to do with the fuel pump circuit, the only reason it is shown, is because the 12v feed from the ign switch is "daisy chained" through the injection locking relays socket.

Found this http://www.ignitioncarparts.co.uk/PartD ... 3.0&s_vid= on an old post. It mentions it's for a GTA but pretty expensive as I believe you can get cheaper solid state pumps such as Posi flow?

I have just looked at this link and notice that the same pump is used in the Atmo as well as the Turbo, so one can only assume it is fit only for the front located pump, as both the Atmo and the Turbo share the same pump and part number.

Clearly check front pump is working as it should. As the symptom
Does sound front pump related, I.e runs several miles then stops, it will be worse on an empty tank.(it generally works after you leave if for several minutes as gravity flows the fuel to rear pot, then will run x miles and conk out again)
But there is Also a covluted pipe that goes near front filter up and over this blocks with age, mine blocked totally! I did manage to get most of the debris out but had one made up to be on the safe side cost me about a fiver, only difference it no longer had a bracket welded on. I got around that by fitting a pclip, I can get hold of some cool p-clips.

Worth checking anyway, all you have to do is disconnect rubber pipe to filter that attaches to said metal pipe and other end that goes to tank. It goes without saying to get some pipe pliers to stop fuel pissing out tank firstly.

Dave

I'll check the connections and see what condition they are in - I can probably guess !
With regards to the relay, can someone confirm if that is located between the rear seats or above the fuse panel please?
If i'm sorting out and cleaning connections, then I may as well check that the relay is working as it should.

It does feel like an intermittent issue, as the car ran fine in the end for 10 miles (with AA man following me).
Whereas 40 mins earlier it would run for 40 secs before dying.
At first I thought some crud had lodged in the front filter (which is a few months old). But for it to then run without issues seems to feel like a bad connection. Presume if the pump was on the way out, then it fail and that would be it.

I've edited my post above re-read might clarify your symptoms.
Dave

With regards to the relay, can someone confirm if that is located between the rear seats or above the fuse panel please?

Hi Paul,

The relay is located between the rear seats.

If i'm sorting out and cleaning connections, then I may as well check that the relay is working as it should.

Unless both pumps start and stop together, it won't be the relay.

Presume if the pump was on the way out, then it fail and that would be it.

These electric rotary pumps are very robust. The armature (rotating element) is emersed in fuel, as are the bearings and commutator. The fuel is used as a lubricant and also keeps the pump cool. Andy's comment above has surprised me, I find it difficult to understand how it can seize but I have no doubt that what Andy says, he believes to be the case. The only thing I would caution is never run the pump out of the car with 12v applied as it is likely to sieze without fuel flowing through to lubricate it.
But with regard to your quote above, I would say you are right, the chances of there being an intermittent fault within the pump is pretty remote although, I suppose, possible but extremely unlikely.

Someone.

Have you checked the condition of your rear noise suppressor?

Sounds like it might be on the way out to me especially if your rear pump is being noisy....

Don't replace the front pump with a diaphragm style "dak dak" pump, as it ends up running flat out, as it feeds the "swirl pot" at the rear and overflows back to the main tank. These style pumps are made to feed a carb with a needle valve and will not last running fast with no pressure. Use a rotary type pump (Pierburg or Carter I think) made to feed carbs for the front pump.

That is a really good point Alan - good heads up, easily missed.

Cheers,
Martin

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Connections on the pump looked fine - though that didn't stop me from cleaning them up and putting a dab of battery connection grease on them. Noticed there is a two pin connector which I'll spray with switch cleaner and then reconnect.

Probably will change the pump, as it looks a bit battered and the end hose connector is very rusted.
I presume the end hose connector doesn't come with a replacement pump. Anyone suggest a source for the end hose connector please ?

Noticed there is a two pin connector which I'll spray with switch cleaner and then reconnect.

Paul, .... There could be two connectors, one either side of the suppressor if it has not been removed already ... both need to be cleaned and checked even if you go as far as changing the pump. Just for info, if the suppressor goes faulty, it will stop the pump, it will not cause intermittent running of the pump.