Martin’s PRV bone yard…

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Postby cineman » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:15 pm

Hello folks!

for Martin: the inside of the 24v engine was just clean that way, no special treatment.

For all and in particular to Megasquirt user:
does someone knows the injector characteristic of the green 300cc bosch of the Safrane biturbo - i think the same of A610 ? they are 0 280 150 806 .
I am interested in particular in the Dead Time settings, the PWM limits and threshold.
Even if not the same injectors, i am curious what settings other user put, with what injector.
I think my bugs in "roundness" of throttle are around there, after working on all the rest.
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Postby MFaulks » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:04 pm

Hi Andrea,

Thanks on the finish, looked a bit like a Zinc Chromate finish...

Injectors, I've not been there, so did a quick search, and dug these out if you have not seen them:

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/55446-pwm-measurements/

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/55910-i ... ead-sheet/

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 01&t=39732

Hope that helps? Surprise Eddie wasn't able to post up if he hasn't pm'd?

Anyway, hope life is treating you well! :)
Martin
Last edited by MFaulks on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby MFaulks » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:18 pm

I've been making progress and catching up on my projects, so pleased to be making progress, with spinning plates as BigM said on 4 engines coming close to kicking into life or turning key today :)

Firstly, some pics of some real hardware - WM 4V Quad Cam PRV... this is where life really begins, and most of us can only dream...

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Sorry can't reveal more :wink:
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby jon_viola » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:15 pm

Now that looks interesting!!
1989 GTA Turbo
2003 Mercedes E320 CDI Estate- A.K.A Badke Bus

www.badkequartet.co.uk
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Postby MFaulks » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:17 pm

.
... anyway, as I said been getting some stuff done, and getting round to utilising some old stuff, and pressed into new life...

Well odd curiosities first, R30 water divider, obviously where the design started out, interesting how it has evolved... look up the later designs further up this thread to compare. I find design evolution and the thought process behind it interesting for something seemingly so simple... part of the tapestry of the long life of the PRV...

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Now, for something old and something new being married...

Modified 0.63 A/R T3 housing with external waste gate, being setup to accept a larger exducer turbine.. a bit more of my Canadian turning techniques... spinning the tool in the headstock, makes for an interesting life when you're down and dirty with it... :wink:

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To be married to something old...

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Mounted up, and start re-assembly:

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Yum yum :D

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... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby MFaulks » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:33 pm

.
Just a quickie for John Law, did you find any of your exhaust flange plates? Pretty please 8)

Thanks Martin
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby cineman » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:33 pm

Martin those are great pieces of hardware, i never saw... and also first time i know of their existance :) i saw just old vintage photos... it should have been a great luck and money invest for them!

BTW , for the Megasquirt options, i setted the Dead time of the bosch renault safrane biturbo 807 injectors at 0,650ms , and it seem it made a world of change, the car is very good running after the remap with the settings!
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Postby MFaulks » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:53 am

.
Hi Andrea, glad you liked the pictures. Interesting thing is the inlet manifold and the front cover doesn't tie up with the old pictures you mention of the WM engines. I haven't bought the parts; I simply can't invest what's being asked for them... I guess if you had an existing 24V Quad cam engine in a racer, then it would make sense to have the spare parts, but for me as a non-professional in this game, I have to know my limits. As far as I know the package is still for sale, so if anybody did want them and had the necessary cash then drop me a line...

Megasquirt - that sounds interesting, so what did you start with, and how does it make so much difference? How does the improvement manifest itself? I have not had the option to play with these settings, as mostly reverse engineer OE as you know, but I would like a better understanding of practically what you get, or should get. Thanks Andrea.
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Postby MFaulks » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:35 pm

.
I have been reviewing some old stuff, and there are always things that spring to mind when you look back over it...

I just found some pictures that survived my HDD crash, and here's one from Eddie's true mid-engine GTA monster project. Is that an oil return from the turbo at the front middle of the sump Eddie? There is something else there worth noting about the Hartge setup looking at this again...

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How is it going Eddie, have you got back on to it? When are you going to release your wishbone and suspension upgrades?

Talking Bi-turbo's, here's a better picture of the A310 bi-turbo rebuild and upgrade I did for the monster car from below and further up this thread:

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... php?t=6116
http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.c ... 559&page=1

..might be of interest to Bob. Moreover, Tommy in Belgium was asking about turbo oil return, and this is how that one was solved on this installation.

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Some additional bi-turbo pictures, not sure of all the sources now, but all with slightly different arrangements, worth reviewing.

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This is another PSA oddity; the later 3ltr even-fire head casting intake port arrangement and 46mm inlet valve (as opposed the 44mm), but combined with the earlier head casting recessed spark plug arrangement. It would be interesting to be able to ask these questions, and find out if there is any factory dyno data, why this combination was made, and directly how it compared against their criteria and test methods. This is where access to these nuances through people involved at the time, or factory records and archives would be interesting, may be something Roy Smith could help us with Mr. Dell? This is the kind of detail that is not covered in Les Renault Alpine GTA by Frederick LHospied, and surely exists out there… bit like the Renix tuning information, much of what I know I will write up here shortly, possibly someone would like to take it to the next stage… I feel this is the pity when it’s all locked behind closed doors, as it just becomes stale and a lost art, or exclusive to those whom will charge excessively putting off the majority of owners.. sorry getting side tracked...

I have one of these heads NOS, but only the one side (cylinder bank) sadly, I purchased to see if there were any other changes, strange that there are reportedly a few hundred of these heads on the shelf, but as I say just the one side.. very strange, wonder how that happened? Anyway, I think it's the head casting used on the R25 ph 2, 205hp that was also blessed with the upgraded Renix ecu... and that will be for another story. In the meantime, if I post the part number, can some one trace the origin or where used to see exactly which engine version this head was applied? Thanks in advance :)

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Pity Roman isn't on here anymore after he was mostly chased off.. :roll: ... had some good points, and data from his testing would have been valuable to share:

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... sc&start=0

Cheers,
Martin
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby cineman » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:53 pm

Hi Martin, nice works as usual :wink:

About the megasquirt, there is a lot to talk about...dont know where to start :)
but let's say that for the money it cost is very adaptable to quite everything... renix flywheel is directly supported, and having all the good sensors ( wideband, egt, and knock ) is quite quick to make it run and tune.
Problems are just in the things we dont' have informations: i used stock bosch injectors of the safrane biturbo, and i had not the exact injector details about dead time, reactions, exact flow etc... so i made a lot of "guess"
and being my first time in tuning some parameters i did not understand their importance, maybe their manual is a bit forgiving and not complete to be good for all the situation... but the forums and support and details on the web are a lot, maybe more than other expansive ecu.
it would have been faster if i used an injector bought from their website maybe... :)

About the twin turbo oil path, can you tell me how you did arrange the engine ventilation ? Just air free in a recolletting oil tank ? I see the hose on the top of left cover... did you put a fuel vapor venting system on the car ? how did you managed it ? pcv valve, pierburgs ?
Andrea
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RHD Red Renault Alpine GTA Turbo
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Postby darrenbiggs » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:10 pm

Have the injectors got an ID number on them? (Usually should have if they're Bosch or similar)

If so there are charts of dead times out there if you google around...

http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html
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twin turbo.

Postby E M Wynne » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:12 pm

Hi Martin,
Things have been a bit slow here...like yourselves for one the weather...not getting any younger...just moved workshop to nearer the center of town & getting things set up... Carol my partner being unwell...but everything has been laser cut & ready for assembly...so I should have some bits & pieces at one off the meets at the Ace come the summer...yes thats the std. possition for the turbo oil return from both turbo,s... oil feed above.
Cheers Eddie.
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Postby MFaulks » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:51 pm

Hi Eddie,

Thanks for the clarification.

Well best wishes to Carol, and hope she's getting better, please send my regards. Be great to see you over here. There has been a little progress on the P4, went over to Chris and checked out the wiring, fuel, oil, and water systems he has fitted so that they are all in good shape ready for priming and firing up for the first time. So basically will be ready to give it a go as soon a Chris is done and we can match diaries.

Cheers,
Martin
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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350 hp GTA turbo 2.5ltr

Postby MFaulks » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:18 pm

.
... were you all expecting me to say something about this.. JV's 350 hp 2.5ltr turbo? 8) :wink:

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... 1&start=15

Image

Well, some of the modifications are already up here to see, page 13 for the wastegate housing and 15 for the valve seat mods, so no secrets, and actually nothing beyond any member if they so wished. The cam is specific and matches to the turbo as a package, and does relate to what I was saying previously here:

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... &start=195

But I think as a setup this is very much in the spirit of OE:

single turbo - journal bearing T3 on 49mm exd turbine - no larger than OE
OE exhaust headers and fitment, nothing special.
OE turbo collector, ported as you can see on Jon's thread, but nothing major major...
OE waste gate component, modified, but still an internal wastegaste…
OE down pipe, 2.5 inch, no changes
single OE coil pack
non-cross bolt OE 2.5ltr bottom end, and OE compression.
OE 2 bar MAP sensor

..even the OE intercooler is still in there adding restriction! Yet still the OE electronics controlling it in the form of the ecu.. the turbo is T3 technology with some tweaks. So a pretty honest OE spec, no real high tech tweaks. I think all in all it's pretty darn good, even if I say so myself :lol: 8)

So what's up next.. well modern tech, and modern electronics? Let's hope so, as should set a new bar from this marker point 8) - to clarify this point - this is down to our community making the difference as a whole. It will affect the perceived value of the cars and hence the technology, so the solutions and performance of those solutions needs to ever evolve and improve and I don't necessarily mean that's from me, as there are many others here as well pushing the perceptions of this engine forward to be taken more seriously.

Edit MF - budget point removed, as inaccurate.
Last edited by MFaulks on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby blueg33 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:04 pm

What is a shoestring budget for this work? I would love a 300 + bhp Alp, but I would want to do something about the brakes.
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