GTA Le Mans Number 03 has a new owner!!

The unit tries to work when the blipper is pressed but the movement is 5mm tops compared to the approx 20mm of the other side.

Paul.... if you move the solenoids actuators by hand..... is one stiffer than the other? ...also, we know that it cross locks the doors with the key.... do I take it that you can do that from both sides? also, will the doors lock/unlock when you operate the switch on the dash?
Because if all these actually work but it only fails when the plipper is operated, that is puzzling,... because there is only one pulse from the door locking timer relay, and this is sent to both solenoids...ie:- there is no separate circuit for each solenoid.
It looks on the face of it that you have a lazy solenoid, but that does not stack up because it seems to work sometimes.
Even though you say the connector(s) are in place....I would unplug them to see if there is any corrosion or the pins are not tight causing a poor connection especially on the faulty side.
Unfortunately the circuit manual is quite vague when it comes to the locking process....it does not even show the solenoids

The unit tries to work when the blipper is pressed but the movement is 5mm tops compared to the approx 20mm of the other side.

Paul.... if you move the solenoids actuators by hand..... is one stiffer than the other? ...also, we know that it cross locks the doors with the key.... do I take it that you can do that from both sides? also, will the doors lock/unlock when you operate the switch on the dash?
Because if all these actually work but it only fails when the plipper is operated, that is puzzling,... because there is only one pulse from the door locking timer relay, and this is sent to both solenoids...ie:- there is no separate circuit for each solenoid.
It looks on the face of it that you have a lazy solenoid, but that does not stack up because it seems to work sometimes.
Even though you say the connector(s) are in place....I would unplug them to see if there is any corrosion or the pins are not tight causing a poor connection especially on the faulty side.
Unfortunately the circuit manual is quite vague when it comes to the locking process....it does not even show the solenoids

Check the connection to the solenoid behind the panel. my Atmo currently on has one lock working electronically the drivers side, Iam yet to change the cylinder on the passenger side lock due to time. The other day the battery went flat and I could not get into it as the drivers side door lock is not of the mechanical type. I thumped the side of the car .....in a controlled manner for a change with the flat of my palm and not my size 10 boot tried the key and both doors opened electronically, there was just enough in the battery. I jiggled the connector an pushed them firmly together no more problems.

I have realised that this is a common problem and one I am going to overide this, quite simply and cheaply I hope . I am going to purchase a connection that the the race boys use in the single seaters/sports cars that are without alternaters fitted. This consists of a a male and female plug and socket. The connectors for the male part has a handle and you connect the supply cable to a car battery and plug this into the female, locayed in a dicrete but reasonable accessible position under the rear of the vehicle. A positive cable is then run through to the main positive cable on the bulkhead and the earth to the chassis this way you can plug in and re power the doors and even use to jump start with a battery closer to the engine

ps all of the above would be connected to a spare battery ...no having to break in with a coat hanger and risking electrocution but touching crocodile clips to verious components of the electrics it will also iliminate the need to have a second person to open the door for you too

si21....

The unit tries to work when the blipper is pressed but the movement is 5mm tops compared to the approx 20mm of the other side.

Paul.... if you move the solenoids actuators by hand..... is one stiffer than the other? ...also, we know that it cross locks the doors with the key.... do I take it that you can do that from both sides? also, will the doors lock/unlock when you operate the switch on the dash?
Because if all these actually work but it only fails when the plipper is operated, that is puzzling,... because there is only one pulse from the door locking timer relay, and this is sent to both solenoids...ie:- there is no separate circuit for each solenoid.
It looks on the face of it that you have a lazy solenoid, but that does not stack up because it seems to work sometimes.
Even though you say the connector(s) are in place....I would unplug them to see if there is any corrosion or the pins are not tight causing a poor connection especially on the faulty side.
Unfortunately the circuit manual is quite vague when it comes to the locking process....it does not even show the solenoids

Hi John.

“ if you move the solenoids actuators by hand..... is one stiffer than the other?”
If you mean between the passenger, (defective), and drivers door I’m sorry I do not know as I have only exposed the defective side.

“we know that it cross locks the doors with the key.... do I take it that you can do that from both sides?”
No it will lock both doors when the key is turned in the passenger door, but it does not open the passenger door when the key is turned in the driver’s door.

“will the doors lock/unlock when you operate the switch on the dash?”
I had forgotten about the dashboard switch!! I have just checked and the driver’s door will open and close whilst the passenger door will not function it either remains locked or unlocked depending on what state it is in when the dash switch is operated.

“It looks on the face of it that you have a lazy solenoid, but that does not stack up because it seems to work sometimes.”
It may move on the passenger side but it does not move enough to either open or close using the remote methods, blipper, dash switch or driver’s door lock, but it has a good range of movement when the key is used in the passenger door.

I will check the electrical connections again and clean them when I next get a chance, perhaps tomorrow night.

Regards

Paul.

Hi Simon

"Check the connection to the solenoid behind the panel."

Will check and clean as you and John both suggest.

Paul

“It looks on the face of it that you have a lazy solenoid, but that does not stack up because it seems to work sometimes.”

Ok Paul, thank you for clarifying all my questions, so now we are saying that the passenger door appears not to Lock/Unlock what ever you do electrically, but it does operate correctly with the key in the passengers lock, that is because it is operating mechanically with the key.
Clearly from the above quote, I got the impression that it worked sometimes electrically.......so..... either it is a bad connection in the 5 pin connector on the passenger side, or a lazy solenoid.
Its worth checking the connector for bad or corroded pin contact, also see if the mechanics of the lock/unlock actions are still stiff.

John

“It looks on the face of it that you have a lazy solenoid, but that does not stack up because it seems to work sometimes.”

Ok Paul, thank you for clarifying all my questions, so now we are saying that the passenger door appears not to Lock/Unlock what ever you do electrically, but it does operate correctly with the key in the passengers lock, that is because it is operating mechanically with the key.
Clearly from the above quote, I got the impression that it worked sometimes electrically.......so..... either it is a bad connection in the 5 pin connector on the passenger side, or a lazy solenoid.
Its worth checking the connector for bad or corroded pin contact, also see if the mechanics of the lock/unlock actions are still stiff.

John

Hi John

Sorry if what I had written had misled you previously.

I will check out the 5 pin connector, and are you suggesting I should expose the driver’s side lock mechanism for a comparison with the passenger side? If so it is likely that will be a Sunday job.

Thanks for all of your help.

Paul

The unit tries to work when the blipper is pressed but the movement is 5mm tops compared to the approx 20mm of the other side.

Paul, This is the reason I got the impression that you had opened up both sides, but now you have said only the passengers side is opened up, what comparisons were you making?

are you suggesting I should expose the driver’s side lock mechanism for a comparison with the passenger side?

Its up to you, but comparing a known good one, even just visually, can be useful, but possibly not just yet.
I don`t know if you have the bracket holding the actuators actually out of its fixing and the rods detached from the lock button part, if so, can you lock/unlock by pushing up the rod that was attached to the solenoid?
If all is still in place, the rods can be detached by turning the little plastic catch through 90`,then you can slip the rod from the solenoids actuator.
Having done that, see how stiff the rod is to push/pull and take a judgment on if it is free enough to be operated by the solenoid, or in fact perhaps it will only travel your 5mm, if so you will need to sort that as you need to be able to lock/unlock just by pull/push of the rod.
With the rod still detached, operate the plipper and see if you get full travel of the actuator to your 20mm.
Clearly all this should only be done if after cleaning up all the connections and the unit still does not operate correctly.

John

The unit tries to work when the blipper is pressed but the movement is 5mm tops compared to the approx 20mm of the other side.

Paul, This is the reason I got the impression that you had opened up both sides, but now you have said only the passengers side is opened up, what comparisons were you making?

are you suggesting I should expose the driver’s side lock mechanism for a comparison with the passenger side?

Its up to you, but comparing a known good one, even just visually, can be useful, but possibly not just yet.
I don`t know if you have the bracket holding the actuators actually out of its fixing and the rods detached from the lock button part, if so, can you lock/unlock by pushing up the rod that was attached to the solenoid?
If all is still in place, the rods can be detached by turning the little plastic catch through 90`,then you can slip the rod from the solenoids actuator.
Having done that, see how stiff the rod is to push/pull and take a judgment on if it is free enough to be operated by the solenoid, or in fact perhaps it will only travel your 5mm, if so you will need to sort that as you need to be able to lock/unlock just by pull/push of the rod.
With the rod still detached, operate the plipper and see if you get full travel of the actuator to your 20mm.
Clearly all this should only be done if after cleaning up all the connections and the unit still does not operate correctly.

John

Hi John

“but now you have said only the passenger’s side is opened up, what comparisons were you making?”

I was observing the amount of travel upwards, (20mm), of the driver’s side electric lock indicator labelled ‘b’ in the drawings you sent me, and the amount of travel upwards of the passenger side electric lock indicator, (5mm).


“If all is still in place”

Yes the unit is still in place within the body work. It was getting dark last Sunday when I had exposed the motor. But this Sunday I do not have anything planned, (so far!), so I can make an early start and make full use of the daylight. I cannot work while the car is in the garage due to space constraints, so on Sunday I will back the car out onto the drive and get stuck in to what you have suggested above.

Thanks Again

Paul.

I was observing the amount of travel upwards, (20mm), of the driver’s side electric lock indicator labelled ‘b’ in the drawings you sent me, and the amount of travel upwards of the passenger side electric lock indicator, (5mm).

Ah! I see what you mean now......tell me, what is the feel between the two indicators as they are in fact, manual lock/unlock "buttons".........is the passenger one stiffer than the driver, (check with both doors closed) if they are both the same..... my money is on the solenoid its self.

I was observing the amount of travel upwards, (20mm), of the driver’s side electric lock indicator labelled ‘b’ in the drawings you sent me, and the amount of travel upwards of the passenger side electric lock indicator, (5mm).

Ah! I see what you mean now......tell me, what is the feel between the two indicators as they are in fact, manual lock/unlock "buttons".........is the passenger one stiffer than the driver, (check with both doors closed) if they are both the same..... my money is on the solenoid its self.

Hi John

I will check the feel/resistance between both manual lock/unlock "buttons" in the pulled up and pushed down modes tomorrow after work.

Thanks

Paul.

I was observing the amount of travel upwards, (20mm), of the driver’s side electric lock indicator labelled ‘b’ in the drawings you sent me, and the amount of travel upwards of the passenger side electric lock indicator, (5mm).

Ah! I see what you mean now......tell me, what is the feel between the two indicators as they are in fact, manual lock/unlock "buttons".........is the passenger one stiffer than the driver, (check with both doors closed) if they are both the same..... my money is on the solenoid its self.

Hi John

Now for the latest instalment, tonight I went out to the car and tried the Electric Lock Indicator’s, (b in the drawings), and found that the driver and passenger sides both appear to have the same resistance/stiffness, , both doors were closed during this time.

I then removed the forward of two plunger control links, (labelled a in the picture), from the locking motor, (labelled c in the picture), and tried the remote blipper. The Electric Lock Indicator barely moved on the passenger side when the blipper was pressed, (5mm at best), whilst the driver’s side had its usual 20mm of up and downward motion. I pressed the blipper many times and noted the travel of the Electric Lock Indicator on the passenger side occasionally did not move at all. At this point I began to suspect the locking motor was defective or lazy as you have described it, but since returning to my PC I have noted in the other picture you have sent me there is an Unlocking motor also, (labelled f).

As I mentioned previously I do not have a great deal of room in the garage so I am waiting until the weekend to go further when I will bring the car out of the garage and be able to clamber in and out of the back of the car without knocking the doors against the walls, etc. then I should be able to remove the whole unit and check further. Surely it is unlikely that both the opening and closing motors have become defective together? What is the solenoid is it known by another name on those drawings as they do not show a solenoid?

Best Regards

Paul

Unlocking motor also, (labelled f).

Paul, as you have seen, there are two operating units, the one marked "c" is the lock/unlock solenoid, ie:- pull/push for lock/unlock = L/U in future, and the other "f" is the door opening motor, the one you hear when you use the door opening catch in the door card, not used in the L/U process.

What is the solenoid is it known by another name on those drawings as they do not show a solenoid?

Although in the pic "c" is called a motor, it is in fact a solenoid, I think a translation boob when they wrote the manual.
I think you will find that the pic, although a reasonable guide, is not exactly the same as what you have on your Alp, there was a slight change from the early Alps, which the pic is of, to the later ones.....it can be used as a guide but there could be slight differences.
What I would do next is detach the rod from solenoid "c" and try the plipper with no load (resistance) on the solenoid, but as it is the behind the bracket, it will have to be removed from the car by firstly detaching the emergency opening cable from the rear of the bracket, the rods "a" you have already removed, and the three torx screws in the door jam just around the jaw of the lock. If you find it still only has 5mm travel, and you have checked and cleaned all connectors, then the only way forward is to fit another solenoid and see if that cures the problem.
Good luck

John

Unlocking motor also, (labelled f).

Paul, as you have seen, there are two operating units, the one marked "c" is the lock/unlock solenoid, ie:- pull/push for lock/unlock = L/U in future, and the other "f" is the door opening motor, the one you hear when you use the door opening catch in the door card, not used in the L/U process.

What is the solenoid is it known by another name on those drawings as they do not show a solenoid?

Although in the pic "c" is called a motor, it is in fact a solenoid, I think a translation boob when they wrote the manual.
I think you will find that the pic, although a reasonable guide, is not exactly the same as what you have on your Alp, there was a slight change from the early Alps, which the pic is of, to the later ones.....it can be used as a guide but there could be slight differences.
What I would do next is detach the rod from solenoid "c" and try the plipper with no load (resistance) on the solenoid, but as it is the behind the bracket, it will have to be removed from the car by firstly detaching the emergency opening cable from the rear of the bracket, the rods "a" you have already removed, and the three torx screws in the door jam just around the jaw of the lock. If you find it still only has 5mm travel, and you have checked and cleaned all connectors, then the only way forward is to fit another solenoid and see if that cures the problem.
Good luck

John

Thanks John

Let us hope that the weather in the Bedfordshire area is dry on Sunday, then I may be able to do all you suggest.

Thanks again.

Paul.

Paul, I hope I catch you before you start, I might have given you the wrong info on the position of the L/U solenoid, I was looking up something else and came across this pic of the door mechanism which Clee posted up some time ago, I am sure he won`t mind me reproducing the pic as it does show the L/U solenoid straight in front of you without having to remove the bracket, however if you have to change it, the bracket will have to come out though.
The clip and rod I was suggesting you detach is the green one and see if the solenoid gives you the 20mm range when operated by the plipper, or if the mechanism is stopping the movement.
Sorry for this late info.

Hi John

I disconnected the rods and clips visible from the front of the L/U solenoid and tried using the blipper, in the first instance I got improved movement, and then the movement reduced before stopping completely. See the link to the video I made of this happening; see also the two photos below they show that the installation in my car is slightly different to that in the photo you posted earlier.

Does this mean the solenoid is defective and needs to be replaced?


http://s1015.photobucket.com/albums/af2 ... 011003.mp4

Regards

Paul.