Martin’s PRV bone yard…

Rupert - brembo caliper from a 406 Coupe fitted straight on. At £200 for a pair and with Clio discs at £50 a pair it seemed a cheap way to go

Interesting stuff. Do you know which 406/Clio?

Jon, I think your best bet is speak to Rupert directly, this is a quote from his project thread anyway. If not, I think Lee knows the details as well.

Talking of which, Rupert, did you manage to get back to the rolling road with John after your fuelling issues? I guess you were going to Track and Road? I was trying to find where the lift pump was originally discussed, but thinking about it after, I think the issue is the high pressure pump will flow its maximum rate irrespective of engine demand, with it's duty point in terms of flow purely dictated by the fuel rail pressure set - decreasing as the rail pressure increases. Hence the lift pump(s) need to flow the same rate as the main pump at least to keep it primed, rather than that demanded by the engine to make xyz hp. Hence, as you found, the pump must have been starved of fuel, and probably running hot, and possibly why it has gone noisy?

Eddie what prime and high pressure fuel pump arrangement are you running on your 24V by way of comparison?

Thanks,
Martin

Martin,
I,m using a single Bosch 044 a la 610...soon to be moved to inside the fuel tank...to old to be crawling under cars...had no problems...but it,s LOUD.
Eddie.

Rupert - brembo caliper from a 406 Coupe fitted straight on. At £200 for a pair and with Clio discs at £50 a pair it seemed a cheap way to go

Interesting stuff. Do you know which 406/Clio?

Jon, I think your best bet is speak to Rupert directly, this is a quote from his project thread anyway. If not, I think Lee knows the details as well.

Talking of which, Rupert, did you manage to get back to the rolling road with John after your fuelling issues? I guess you were going to Track and Road? I was trying to find where the lift pump was originally discussed, but thinking about it after, I think the issue is the high pressure pump will flow its maximum rate irrespective of engine demand, with it's duty point in terms of flow purely dictated by the fuel rail pressure set - decreasing as the rail pressure increases. Hence the lift pump(s) need to flow the same rate as the main pump at least to keep it primed, rather than that demanded by the engine to make xyz hp. Hence, as you found, the pump must have been starved of fuel, and probably running hot, and possibly why it has gone noisy?

Eddie what prime and high pressure fuel pump arrangement are you running on your 24V by way of comparison?

Thanks,
Martin

Firstly Brakes:
There is a thread somewhere, but essentially Brembo 4 pots from a 406 coupe usually on ebay from about 150 per pair, then a pair of ventilated discs for a 16v clio 280mm. These all fit straight on the GTA.
The key issue is getting rims to fit over the caliper which is fatter on the outside by virtue of the pistons.
I have 15mm spacers behind the Le Mans rims to clear and the rims are 16" of course.

Fuel.
I'm currently using a facet red top as a lift pump but I suspect it is not providing enough fuel for the bosch a610 spec pump. I want to fit a larger lift pump low down near the fuel tank outlet and then locate the high pressure pump in the engine bay feeding the rails. This should iron out the variable pressure I'm hoping. If anyone can recommend a suitable lift pump that'd be great.

What does the lift feed to ? Is it to a tank then high pressure ?What bore pipes ?

At present it lifts to a swirl pot through 8mm copper pipe, this then feeds the high pressure pump.
This feeds the rails then there is a regulator and a return pipe to the tank.
There's also a return pipe from the swirl pot.

.
Well the 8mm lines should be good to go for the expected power level, and the rest of the system should be fine as described. Sounds like it's just a delivery rate imbalance between the lift and the main pump… Pretty easy check from what Eddie is saying, just run a quick line to the lift pump feed line directly to the pressure pump, go test and see how you get on...

What about filters ? Check for blockages etc .If feeding a pot then I'm suprised it can't keep up .

Okay, I'll persevere with the facet unit. I'll put it back down by the tank outlet (instead of the front boot area) with an ordinary in line filter between the tank and the facet pump (as existing).
Than a straight run back to the swirl pot relocated into the engine bay.
This should reduce some of the bends and kinks in the fuel line which should reduce resistance.
It's on the std fuel regulator at the moment which could also be part of the problem. What pressure should I be expecting? 3.5 bar?
Thanks

.
Andrea, was the below surface prep of the inside of the block your own, or something already there (green stuff)? If your own, what were you using please, looks good?



Brian, I take it you are likely looking to go 3ltr even-fire, when you are out searching, look for the head castings without the ugly smog port in the exhaust, as follows:





You don’t really want this one:



Brian, and Johnb, the below is the same head casting as yours (current R30, A310, GTA atmo, GTA turbo), and a quick 3 angle valve job to take the 3ltr even-fire n/a 46mm inlet (from 44mm on a 30 deg seat) on 30, 45, 70 seat cuts. The inlet throat was 40.8mm with a port volume of 89cc and exhaust taken up to a 38.5mm valve.



Started out as a bit of an ugly mess:




There are several engine rebuilds going on with various members, I though I would collect some thoughts, and a few things to look out for, and it would be good to share others experience, so join in, as we can all benefit.

As previously mentioned warped heads, also look for pickup on the cams and the cam bores in the heads, especially if they are tight or don’t want to be removed:





Definite witness on the back of the cam is either tight or closed up clearances (hammered or burnt seats), or potentially warped heads:



Look for distressed cam lobes, and valve to piston contact, although this shouldn’t happen as there is plenty of clearance valve-piston, even on the larger 46mm inlet there is over 250thou:







It is worth doing a vacuum check on your valve seats to ensure they are good (or have someone do it for you, don’t assume they are good, you will be surprised), especially with the 30 deg seat on the 44mm inlet, as it doesn’t self centre as well and has a lower contact face pressure for the same spring force as a 45 seat.




Then some other musings as I think back over stuff, and worth checking whilst doing your build or planning…

O-rings on the water divider to the block, make sure you have the right size, and fit without pinching, or they will leak:



Given the age of these engines and vibration, I think we are likely to see more fatigued items; this water pipe at the back of the heads with the turbo water return circuit is prone, and also very delicate when removing the union… so word to the wise when loosening and tightening up, don’t stress the brazed joint or you may be inflicting a latent defect to cause you problems later..





If the engine is coming put, then replace these fuel lines, just false economy not too, they are likely all hard now or even leaking, and too critical not to replace in my book…



There is also the water heater water pipes at the back of the engine in the same vicinity, and hence believe worth changing these whilst you have it all out, than experience a total water loss on the road or the circuit at a later date... a lot of this old stuff really doesn't like being disturbed, so worth considering...

Check your engine mounts, seems obvious




On a separate and positive note, the engine I have been putting together for my workshop friends at LTH Coachworks for their GTA is finally coming together (story in this thread http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... php?t=4899), and hopefully get put back in the car very soon. This a 2.5ltr with 3ltr even-fire n/a heads fairly substantially modified. Given the passage of time, flow testing and general playing about, and more specifically the flow development on the 2.5ltr heads and how to finesse them, then I wouldn't do it this way now... you live and learn...





It will be good to finally see this one back live and kicking, and allow me to tidy up and start the next couple of builds… may be my last too

Martin

[johnb]

Some useful check points there Martin.
I've already done some of your suggestions as I've replaced all the cooling system hoses. I had to, especially the heater hoses which had completely disintegrated. I've also put new fuel hoses in the engine bay. The water divider O rings will be new from Simon Auto and my engine being non-turbo doesn't have the water pipe arrangement shown in your photos. The engine mounts are good and don't show any sign of separation but I did buy new gearbox mounts as these were separating.
I was interested in your comment about the 'ugly smog port' in the exhaust. Do you mean the small hole from inside the exhaust port to the face of the head as shown in this photo of one of the exhaust ports on my engine? What is the purpose of this passage? My car doesn't have the original exhaust system but has a fabricated stainless system and the 3 flanges that attach to the head blank off these hole in the exhaust ports. So I'm obviously interested in their purpose.

[johnb]

Have done some research on the internet and, correct me if I'm wrong, but the smog port appears to be an exhaust emissions reduction feature. Apparently air is introduced into these ports to allow further burning of fuel mixture as it travels down the exhaust system and reduce emissions levels.
Wikipedia describes two methods of air injection, air pump and aspirated system using exhaust system negative pressure. As my engine does not have an air pump or the external circuitry for an aspirated system, I can only assume that the the exhaust manifolds blanking off these ports will make no difference to the engine operation.
Makes me wonder why the ports are there in the first place unless these heads were used on other Renault, Volvo or Peugeot cars with air injection systems. I guess a disadvantage of the ports being there is that they introduce a bulge into the exhaust port that might restrict flow somewhat.
Anyone have any ideas?

Martin,
Has anyone of the motorsport guys or youself considered converting to COP. a la the later Laguna,s... as this is my next project...I have a Ford Scorpio coil pack... with race spec leads at the moment...also JL. when talking about the work he done on Ruperts car..which is very similar to mine... mentioned a Safrane water pump with no heater etc. outlets on the back off the pump...only the main block inlet...do you have any info on this pump.
Cheers Eddie.

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Hi John,

Yes that's exactly the purpose - air injection, Stunned Monkey will know where these were used, as in countries / car / markets. However, the floor of the port i.e. short turn is reduced and the positive obstruction to flow simply makes it an inefficiently flowing port that builds excessive heat when it is least needed. You can remove the hump almost completely and blend, but don't go too mad - you may as well, you have your heads stripped.

Martin

.
Hi Eddie,

Coil-on plug.. no I haven't mainly from reliability, rather stay coil pack though given the choice. I don't think you will really see an advantage, once you have enough ignition energy, more won't make any more power, and you are just recovering losses from a poor system. But I know what you mean..

Interesting thought though, as Darren's alternator wasn't really charging the battery when we were on the rollers with it for what ever reason, and had I think around 5-9hp loss in power from memory (OE single coil), Lee would have to confirm the exact number. However, putting a battery booster pack on it brought the power straight back up to what is was before with no other changes at all. The OE ecu does compensate for battery voltage and hence injection time (drop in pump delivery rate), so this probably was poor ignition and more erratic firing...

As to the water pump, are you talking the unit on the engine on page 5 of this thread? I think it is effectively the same as page 7, the later OE 3ltr even-fire pump, I very much doubt the internals are different, it may have a different casting without the outlet, but easy plugged. There again I could be wrong, someone with specific knowledge would have to say. Why do you believe it is a different flow rate pump from the 3ltr pump I presume you received with your 24V motor? Thoughts?

Martin

I am sold on the even fire and if I am going to make a change it will be to the 3.0ltr from the Monaco/Premier. The question is when? Strategy wise I am thinking of rebuilding the 2.7ltr in the spring with a good cleaning and regasket and then do a slow build on a 3.0ltr. I need to find the right engine though and continue investigate the configuration options.