Hello from a Newbie with a Project

Hello All. Thought it was time to say hello as have been lurking here a few weeks trying to build up as much knowledge as possible before taking possession of the latest 'project'! I must say, this forum is great, full of people with good knowledge willing to share what they know. I am a member of a fair few car forums and there's only one other that conducts itself with such class

Honestly, this isn't a project I sought out, rather it fell in my lap through a very good friend for a price that couldn't be refused. In truth, as this going to be the 7th car on a full driveway, I really wasn't looking for another just yet! Plenty of pending work to do on the others. Ssshhh, don't tell anyone, but nearly all my cars past and present have been German and the only French one I ever had was a 405 Mi16 that I didn't turn a spanner on! The only other non-German is my 1991 Range Rover Classic, which at least has given me good foundation on electrical gremlins, especially after it's been chucked through muddy bogs!

I had heard about this particular GTA turbo at various times over the last 10 years and always thought it sounded fun. Unfortunately, through unforeseen circumstances, it has been left to sit, unloved, outside for the last four years. It was obviously only going to end up being broken for parts which would be a shame. So far, I've only had a cursory glance at it in a field without battery power or even access to the engine compartment. It was also in deep undergrowth so not easy to see the condition of the chassis / underside or suspension etc. Obviously, being a complete idiot, I'm off to collect it with a low loader next week.

Wish I'd taken some photos, but suffice to say, it doesn't look great on first glance. It's covered with dirt and green algae / lichen. The interior has suffered some water ingress and the interior needs a good clean. Mechanically, it's not a runner, but don't know why exactly. The chassis is a complete (and very scary) unknown. The plan is to recover it to my driveway and set about investigating any issues. Then it should be a little clearer what I've gotten myself in for!

All I know thus far is that the car was last MOT'd and driven in 2011 and mileage sits just under the 100k. Its a pearl white turbo with the Reg E744 AGC. It has Radbourne Racing's script down the side so may have originally been supplied by them. Anyone here owned or have knowledge of this car?

So, what is the plan for this car? Well, that all kind of depends on what I discover and learn about the car and also what can be achieved for what type of budget. Worst case scenario, I will get back all I've spent so far by selling on as a parts car or even breaking but I really hope not.

What I'd really love to do is to use the GTA as the basis for a well sorted track day car. At the moment I use a BMW e30 325 stripped, with a cage, coil-overs, perspex windows etc. which has been great fun, but with 170hp in standard guise, I've been looking at ways to more power. On standard internals, they can safely run 250-280hp from a turbo conversion, but at significant cost. I wonder what the costs / options are for creating GTA track car i.e. coil-overs, brakes, cage, power increases? Some videos I've seen suggest the GTA can be a great track weapon, but slightly concerned by the scarcity and cost of replacement / tuning parts.

If the chassis is OK, I will start with the mechanicals and see if I can get it back to MOT with as small a spend as possible. Then I will take it to the track for a shakedown as it is to get a feel for how well the project may turn out. I have a feeling this might be a few months away though!

So, I'll stop waffling on now, but there are a few questions I have:

Where do you all get parts from ? Have browsed the Simon-Auto-shop website which looks like a good start.
Anyone got a decent diagnostics kit for sensible money? I have seen a XR25 usb cable and the Fenix eXplorer software for €150 on fenixecu.com . Anyone used this, is it good investment?
Do the D501's have an LSD as standard?
Anyone able to estimate the cost of reaching 250hp with a reliable engine?

I'm excited to get stuck in to this in the next few weeks. I will post photos when possible and hope you don't mind that I'll probably be asking a lot more questions once I get the car. Cheers.

[BIG_MVS]

Welcome.

I know this car. The last owner was a chap called George Black. He sounded like he was very poorly when I last spoke to him 5 or 6 years ago. He was based in the North East somewhere.

Is that where it's located? Of course it might of been sold on since.

Hi, thanks for the welcome. Yes, that's the one. Sadly George passed away last year following a long 20+ year battle with illness. George was from near Durham but spend some time in Lincolnshire where the car is these days. The car meant a great deal to him and one of the things I would love to do is get it back on the road so his daughter (godmother to my kids) can have a good drive of her late fathers pride and joy Sentimentality could cost me!

First of all welcome, I'm a relative newbie on here, but not to sick GTAs !
My thread in Cars and projects covers a lot of the grot, and any it doesn't you'll find in Clees ( RATS) threads. It's all do-able.
The front crossmember, I would say is the most difficult repair in my opinion, as it's a bit of a backbreaker to do in a home workshop, but with the benefit of a lift etc may be easier.
Where are you ?, if you're Lincolnshire, depending which bit, you're not far from me ( Derbyshire ) so I would be happy to have a gander at the car and point out where to start/advise you whether the car will be viable for your skills or pocket.
If it turns out you need welding work and are not up to it yourself then the only place advisable to get it in to is RATS ( IMHO ).
If we can identify where it needs work ( if any ) you can price getting the structure sound, then add on a shopping list of needs, then wants, then would likes!
As far as engine upgrades are concerned then now is no better time, as dodgy boost bodges are a thing of the past, again RATS are the place to go to, I may sound biased, but can anyone point out a better option?
Good luck and hope it turns out solid as rock, if it doesn't shout up.
PS I wouldn't worry about diagnostic kit, it either will or it won't, a dodgy sensor here, a naff connection there, at worst I'm sure I can lend an known ECU if you want.

I am very sorry to hear that George has past away as i knew him quite well I sourced this car for George and he came to north wales to pick it up off my neighbour, has the car still got fagix wheels 7.5x15 front and 10x15 on the rear, i have some pictures of this car, i will post them up.

Andrew

First of all welcome, I'm a relative newbie on here, but not to sick GTAs !
My thread in Cars and projects covers a lot of the grot, and any it doesn't you'll find in Clees ( RATS) threads. It's all do-able.
The front crossmember, I would say is the most difficult repair in my opinion, as it's a bit of a backbreaker to do in a home workshop, but with the benefit of a lift etc may be easier.
Where are you ?, if you're Lincolnshire, depending which bit, you're not far from me ( Derbyshire ) so I would be happy to have a gander at the car and point out where to start/advise you whether the car will be viable for your skills or pocket.
If it turns out you need welding work and are not up to it yourself then the only place advisable to get it in to is RATS ( IMHO ).
If we can identify where it needs work ( if any ) you can price getting the structure sound, then add on a shopping list of needs, then wants, then would likes!
As far as engine upgrades are concerned then now is no better time, as dodgy boost bodges are a thing of the past, again RATS are the place to go to, I may sound biased, but can anyone point out a better option?
Good luck and hope it turns out solid as rock, if it doesn't shout up.
PS I wouldn't worry about diagnostic kit, it either will or it won't, a dodgy sensor here, a naff connection there, at worst I'm sure I can lend an known ECU if you want.

Hi Ryan, thanks for your welcome. I enjoyed reading your resto thread and it filled me with admiration and fear in equal measure. Particularly enjoyed the several pages devoted to getting the speedo working! Big respect for tenacity

Whilst I'm happy to turn a spanner here and use a crow bar there, certainly don't have any of the welding / fabrication skills so evident in your thread. I can see that if I get serious about this car, a visit to Lee at RATS is almost an inevitability. I do have to keep an eye on budget though. Even if the track car aspiration doesn't meet my modest budget I'd love to work towards having an MOT'd car in saleable condition. I will gladly spend up to what the car would be worth in order to save it from breakers so that's my primary goal. Increasing prices for these rare cars and the general upturn in the classic markets may help, but I fear if this one needs similar work as yours, it still might be cost prohibitive . What was the history of your car before you got it? Am I almost certain to face the same issues especially given the last 4 years stored outside?

Sadly, I'm a little further away from you down in Cambridgeshire but really appreciate your offer to give the car a once over. Next best I can do is post some high res photos of what I find so that you and others in the know can give me the bad news... be gentle.
Cheers. Greg

Good luck with the project, hate to say it but putting it back on the road is going to cost you far more than just going and buying one. Parts are all still obtainable but a lot of it is pricey, I've spent 7k on restoring one of mine over the last few years, with everything being bought or spannered at trade prices and its still not finished - and that one wasn't dragged out of a field :0). Using for a trackday car might work out a better option if you don't go mad on the spec- the money you save on bodywork, interior etc can be spent on coilovers and brakes etc. A few of the guys use their GTAs for some sprinting and hill climbing with some success. They are good fun on circuit. If you want to do it on a budget I'd go for a set of coilovers, some trackday rubber on the standard rims, some discs with bi-metallic pads and a few engine tweaks, strip it out and you've got an 1100kg car. You can get 20-25 bhp with a cheap boost mod or its a chunk more money to get more as the turbo and injectors both need changing to get beyond 230 bhp realistically. Martin Faulks can now re-map the standard ecu with good results and combining this with the uprated turbo and injectors is making a solid 250 bhp at sensible boost. Hope the chassis is ok when you get it back.

I am very sorry to hear that George has past away as i knew him quite well I sourced this car for George and he came to north wales to pick it up off my neighbour, has the car still got fagix wheels 7.5x15 front and 10x15 on the rear, i have some pictures of this car, i will post them up.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew. I noticed in the paperwork the previous owner was North Wales. Nice to hear a story coming together. Do you know much about the previous history of the car and weather it had already had remedial work?

Yes, still got the fagix 456 3 piece alloys and I think they look quite smart. Surprised to hear the rears are 10" as they are 225 50 15 probably due to the unobtanium nature of original 255 widths. Thought they looked a little stretched, but if they work, that's great. I like toyo T1-r , widely available in the narrower fomat and use them on my current track car as a great compromise between cost / wear / performance.

Good luck with the project, hate to say it but putting it back on the road is going to cost you far more than just going and buying one. Parts are all still obtainable but a lot of it is pricey, I've spent 7k on restoring one of mine over the last few years, with everything being bought or spannered at trade prices and its still not finished - and that one wasn't dragged out of a field :0). Using for a trackday car might work out a better option if you don't go mad on the spec- the money you save on bodywork, interior etc can be spent on coilovers and brakes etc. A few of the guys use their GTAs for some sprinting and hill climbing with some success. They are good fun on circuit. If you want to do it on a budget I'd go for a set of coilovers, some trackday rubber on the standard rims, some discs with bi-metallic pads and a few engine tweaks, strip it out and you've got an 1100kg car. You can get 20-25 bhp with a cheap boost mod or its a chunk more money to get more as the turbo and injectors both need changing to get beyond 230 bhp realistically. Martin Faulks can now re-map the standard ecu with good results and combining this with the uprated turbo and injectors is making a solid 250 bhp at sensible boost. Hope the chassis is ok when you get it back.

Hi Tony, thanks for the advice. I've firmly got my fingers crossed that I might dodge a few of the common issues..... Must remain optimistic, at least until next weekend! Perhaps if I take a REALLY LONG time to get the car on the road, values will move in my favour faster than I spend money....... Yeah, we can all dream. Coil overs, brakes, strip, power...... all very motivational words!
Cheers

I can give you a list of what will need doing now :0). Had GTAs for 25 years and they always have the same things wrong :0). '89 on are generally better - they made quite a lot of small improvements round then. If you have orange dials on the clocks its almost an 89 or later, red and its earlier, although I'm sure there are an odd few that break that rule.

Greg, the history of my car is much the same as many GTAs I guess, fair few owners, some who cared/spent some who didn't.
The door post issue I believe is leaky screen related, that and the total lack of any preventative coating as far as rust is concerned other than a coat of black paint straight onto the steel.
The front crossmember was a bummer, but I don't leave stones unturned.....poke, poke, I was alookin' others might not .......inner sills weren't that bad at all.....but why leave 'em ?
It was crusty when I bought it when it was ten years old, ten years with no wax on does little for any steel car. And having welded many a steel monocoque shell, given the choice of a well sorted composite GTA shell, with all areas made good and well treated, I'd pick it to last longer and not ' break through' or start blistering from dozens of old seams, than say a 5GT.
The inner sills are 1.5mm thick plate , so can be repaired with standard plate, no expensive panels with pressings, and curves, you just need a little know how with GRP.
It's not a cheap car to weld, but what you spend on getting a good specialist to do it right, you won't have spent on replacement panels, ................inner and outer 5GT sills, jacking plates, etc etc ?????
I'm not knocking 5Gt's by the way just saying they are now appearing in standard trim at over their new list price...................a GTA Turbo was 25+k when new...........just saying.
I'd jack it up, look at the metal work and speak to Lee, if you have got it at the right price and can spend what it needs to make it solid I think they are safe money in the long run, if you want to get it running, clean it up and bang a ticket on it, have a good look round it and if it's bad get shot......don't start what you can't finish.
It sounds like someone once loved that car I hope it turns out positive.
Good luck.

I can give you a list of what will need doing now :0). Had GTAs for 25 years and they always have the same things wrong :0). '89 on are generally better - they made quite a lot of small improvements round then. If you have orange dials on the clocks its almost an 89 or later, red and its earlier, although I'm sure there are an odd few that break that rule.

Actually, a list of likely issues and solutions is not a bad idea, especially if I can start putting estimate prices next to each bit. Does such a list already exist or is it a worthwhile exercise to start compiling it? This car was registered March 88 so one of the earlier examples. Will have to wait until I actually collect her to see what's what, but my optimism is beginning to fade.

So, after sitting 4 years, would you advise draining and changing all fluids prior to even a trial startup? The only engine I've dealt with before following a lay up period was air cooled so probably a slightly different case. So long as the oil was there, ok condition and pressure built on cranking the starter then no probs. This engine throws in water cooling and of course a turbo, or which I have zero experience.

Greg, the history of my car is much the same as many GTAs I guess, fair few owners, some who cared/spent some who didn't.
The door post issue I believe is leaky screen related, that and the total lack of any preventative coating as far as rust is concerned other than a coat of black paint straight onto the steel.
The front crossmember was a bummer, but I don't leave stones unturned.....poke, poke, I was alookin' others might not .......inner sills weren't that bad at all.....but why leave 'em ?
It was crusty when I bought it when it was ten years old, ten years with no wax on does little for any steel car. And having welded many a steel monocoque shell, given the choice of a well sorted composite GTA shell, with all areas made good and well treated, I'd pick it to last longer and not ' break through' or start blistering from dozens of old seams, than say a 5GT.
The inner sills are 1.5mm thick plate , so can be repaired with standard plate, no expensive panels with pressings, and curves, you just need a little know how with GRP.
It's not a cheap car to weld, but what you spend on getting a good specialist to do it right, you won't have spent on replacement panels, ................inner and outer 5GT sills, jacking plates, etc etc ?????
I'm not knocking 5Gt's by the way just saying they are now appearing in standard trim at over their new list price...................a GTA Turbo was 25+k when new...........just saying.
I'd jack it up, look at the metal work and speak to Lee, if you have got it at the right price and can spend what it needs to make it solid I think they are safe money in the long run, if you want to get it running, clean it up and bang a ticket on it, have a good look round it and if it's bad get shot......don't start what you can't finish.
It sounds like someone once loved that car I hope it turns out positive.
Good luck.

That decision 25 years ago not to galvanise the steel is interesting to say the least. My most mollycoddled car, which started as my daily driver 20 years ago, but nowadays sits as a garage queen under it's cover, has been such a viable keeper mainly because it's fully galvanised. It's not that they won't rust, but kept in the right conditions it's very unlikely. In fact, the whole car, hand assembled as they were, feels hewn from stone and fully over engineered in many places (don't make em like they used to, where's my pipe and slippers ) but that's 80/90's German cars for you!

I'd love to be able to restore this GTA and hang in there for the inevitable £20k + prices they will one day demand but, my only dry indoor storage is being used by aforementioned garage queen. Keeping a GTA stored outside, even under a cover, is sounding like a bad plan and so to that end, I don't think this can be a long term keeper for me.

However this pans out, it's going to be fun, with Spring / Summer on the way, there's nowhere I'd rather be than stuck on the driveway in dirty clothes swearing at 27 year old bolts whilst getting rust in my eyes!! Fortunately, at the moment I'm only in to this car for a little over the recovery cost. I will think long and hard before further investment, but what, that is fun, is really free?

Your's looks nearly ready, not looking for another one to fix are you Ryan..... Derbyshire not a million miles from Cambridgeshire...

Hmmmm..........another pearl white GTA Turbo............that would be interesting.......never say never....but not right now.
On the subject of 20+K values it may happen but who knows, probably not, it's usually the icons, the revelations that make money, 5GTs pushed hot hatchs in a new performance envelope, that or they have to have a RS badge (FORD not Renaultsport).
I'd remain optimistic if, as it sounds this is a ' you can have it if you promise not to break it or sell it on for profit clause car' from a family friend, you have nothing to lose.
You can do a fair amount yourself without spending big dollar, rebuild the calipers, £30 an axle set, discs and pads £50 an axle, it's when you start with rear suspension bushes money starts leaking away. There's a good amount of second hand stuff knocking about it's just the odd bits that are rare or pricey.
Engine wise block rot is an issue best avoided, but don't poke and you might not find it!
If you have rot in only say one of the major areas, price that up with Lee ( I don't know what it costs for something like rear turret work but would guess it's the extras that tot it up like exchange suspension arms, mounts etc which you'd have to scrub unless it was dangerous ) and you might find with a bit of DIY work and a sprinkling of luck you might end up with a tested car for 3k give or take a grand, and a GTA with a years ticket will make pretty much make that if it's not p*ssing out fluids or very shabby.
Have a play with it, take advice, keep a tight rein on your wallet, sheet it up, it's not going to completely rot away unless it's really bad and if it had a test on it four years ago, it must be something like.
I've seen many cars left outside with the wind blowing round 'em fair better than cars in dank lock ups with a permanent puddle under them from a leaky roof, soaked in the winter and sweating in the summer......rot...rot...rot....barn find.
Ever the optimist, your glass is half full with crappy GTA....and in my mind that's better than empty.

Repaint £2500
Doing the rest yourself - i.e. no labour
Calipers, brake lines discs and pads all round - £500
Headlamp glasses - £300
Alternator £120
Speedo £ varies depending on which one of several options is causing the problem
Fuel gauge - As above
Back lights if you need them - £150 each second hand
Screen likely delammed - £200 - if you can get one
Tyres all round - £300 - if you fit the wrong size back tyres
Wheel refurb - £280
Electric windows slow? - £100 a side

That should keep you busy for a while :0)